A Snowman Expert and a Curator Talk About Beautiful Places
Two Cool Substacks Collide & Chat
I am so happy I found The Savvy Museum Visitor Substack—only sorry it was AFTER I published my book, Footnotes From the Most Fascinating Museums because Susan Marie Ward is a museum expert and should have been included in my book. She is a museum consultant (as well as mental health counselor) and was the curator of Biltmore House, home of George Vanderbilt and the largest historic house in America. She’s also worked at Metropolitan Museum of Art and had collections management fellowship at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History.
When I discovered Bob Eckstein’s Substack, The Bob, I realized I had already purchased his book, Footnotes from the Most Fascinating Museums! Someone else who loves behind-the-scenes stories about museums! From there I learned that he’s also a NY Times bestseller, award-winning writer, New Yorker cartoonist and world’s leading snowman expert (The Illustrated History of the Snowman). Bob’s work has been exhibited in the Cartoon Art Museum of San Francisco, Smithsonian Institution, The Cartoon Museum of London, and many others. He has taught at School of Visual Arts, New York University, and Pratt Institute. I mean, how cool is all that!
Bob Eckstein: Susan, so glad we are finally able to do this. In our own defense, I contend we have the two busiest schedules I know. Without further ado, what are your top 3 museums?
Susan Marie Ward: Number one has to be the National Museum of Korea in Seoul. When I visited Seoul last month, re-visiting this museum was my main reason for the trip. Yes, it’s vast and has a dynamic collection of art, but it also has all of the pieces that create a positive visitor experience: well-done storytelling (labels, audio, deep dive opportunities), friendly staff, plenty of seating options, attention to sensory aspects, and a lovely garden with quiet pathways lined with pagodas, tiny creeks, pieces of sculpture, and a delightful waterfall.
BE: I definitely will have to visit it now. I’m supposed to teach at Yonsei University in South Korea later this year. I remember when I was reading about your visit there on your super cool newsletter while I was visiting Rhinebeck, NY, where I ate in a Korean restaurant…
SMW: I suspect your travels to Rhinebeck and my trip at the same time to Seoul were a tad different. When you walked around Rhinebeck, I bet you didn’t buy a yummy egg bread from a street vendor. And I bet Rhinebeck has trash cans on the street, unlike Seoul! At the same time, I’m confident that we were both annoyed by the travel process. And I’m guessing we both were stopped in our tracks by something new we learned. For me it was how deeply the Koreans still struggle with forgiving the Japanese who invaded Korea from 1910-1945. Oh, the things we learn when we travel…
BE: I have no experience in Asia. I’ve been too afraid to get there despite decades ago doing a lot of work for Japan remotely. I’ve always been afraid of the expense getting there and afraid of the food being too exotic for my spoiled ways. I suppose it’s time I stop making excuses.
I did learn in Rhinebeck it’s hard to get a large crowd to show up at book events on cold, blistering days.
Okay, number two…
SMW: Number two, would be the Detroit Institute of Arts. Not only is it my childhood museum, but it’s an excellent museum. A great collection of art. Amazing architecture. Fun and interesting labels. And lovely little details like Eye Spy labels for kids—of course I used them too.
Number three… gosh, should I say the Met, where I’ve spent a huge amount of time and where I did my internship? No, I think I’ll say the Victoria & Albert Museum in London. I lived in London for a couple years and the V&A was a go-to place for me. It has an excellent collection of late 19th/early 20th century decorative arts (furniture, pottery, glass, etc.) which is a favorite of mine. And I love the quirkiness of the building due to all the additions and expansions over time. And, I’m always delighted to have a cup of tea and a pastry in the cafe!
BE: I plan to visit Victoria & Albert Museum in London later this year. My wife, artist Tamar Stone, has work in their permanent collection.
SMW: What’s a museum on your to-be-visited list?
BE: Since my museum book was released, I have been recommended a dozen museums from readers, but I have to say, I’m obsessed with returning to those I know. MASS MoCA’s Anselm Kiefer exhibit hall has been on my mind. It may be my favorite room I ever been in. I think on the bucket list will be outdoor art in England, like the Goldsworthy trails. The National Galleries of Scotland in Edinburgh just closed the largest ever indoor exhibition by Andy Goldsworthy so now we’ll have to go to the outside to see it.
SMW: What touched you about the Kiefer Exhibit?
BE: I cannot put it into words. But I went home inspired to finish my book and create more art. The scale and seeing it in person makes a world of difference. It was almost a religious experience to be in that space. I think anyone else who has been there will know what I mean. Your newsletter does a great job of answering that great aspect for each museum you showcase. Can you share again a favorite museum that inspires you?
SMW: Two museums come to mind. The Japanese American Museum of Oregon in Portland, Oregon, and the National Museum of African American History and Culture in Washington D.C. Both of them tell stories that are both sad and redemptive. Stories about Americans that have been mistreated in distressing ways. Both museums grew my knowledge and also my empathy. Annoyingly, these are the kinds of stories that the current administration wants silenced. What can possibly be wrong with museum visitors learning about other Americans while developing more understanding and empathy?
BE: Exactly. I like to say museums are our giant selfies of what we have accomplished and done in history, both good and bad.
I would love to be able to visit museums alongside you and hear your unique seasoned take on them as I would say you’ve been to many more museums than I—and I’ve been to a lot. Is there a museum you are still hoping to get to?
SMW: Yes! For the last year or two, I’ve been following the National Gallery of Victoria in Melbourne, Australia. They have the most interesting sounding special exhibits. And it’s the most visited museum in Australia and the oldest. Maybe next year? Fingers crossed.
Bob, what was your first museum experience like…mine was DIA. Growing up in Detroit, Detroit Institute of Arts was my first museum experience, and I love the fact that to this day, it’s an amazing museum that fits my criteria as an exceptional museum - incredible art collection and an exceedingly well done visitor experience. So, what was yours like?
BE: Bad. Washington D.C. My earliest experience with museums was no indication that one day I would be interested in seeing as many museums as possible. Just the opposite—at the time, I was hoping it would be my last museum visit ever. No sooner then we emptied out of the car, words were appearing everywhere. These were words, no longer on paper, but endless sentences and words carved into marble and plaques. I had never seen so much text in my eight years. Mom had us read every plaque on every monument. We were promised if we got through all the buildings, we would be rewarded by going to the top of the Washington Monument. As luck would have it, the elevator in the Washington Monument was busted. Then we learned we were not allowed to swim in the Reflecting Pool.
My next museum experience made everything right—a grade school field to see the large whale at the American Museum of Natural History. It changed my life. Susan, what museum changed your life?
SMW: That would have to be Biltmore House in Asheville, North Carolina. I came straight from graduate school to work in the largest historic house museum in the U.S. It was a big leap. As curator, I was responsible for the art, the books, and all of the furnishings, including opening new rooms to the public. At the same time, I learned about budgeting, strategic planning, marketing, and became the primary spokesperson for Biltmore. It broadened my view of museums to include the visitor experience, not just the art and artifacts. The visitor experience became part of my focus when I became a museum consultant, and to this day it shapes how I relate to every museum I visit.
BE: As someone who has worked in multiple museums, what is a big misconception people have about museums?
SMW: Gosh, it’s different from museum to museum, but I’ll share two things. One is misconceptions about funding. They either think all museums are funded by the government or by rich donors. Second, they underestimate the amount of staffing and hours it takes to collect, display, conserve, research, and display the artifacts. They don’t think about things like pest management, or humidity controls, or storage challenges, or what it takes to conserve just one 17th century frame around a painting by Vermeer.
BE: If you could change one thing about how museums function and what they focus on, what would that be?
SMW: Wellness! Museums have great untapped potential to be a societal source for reducing anxiety, boosting resilience and creativity, and much more. They’re doing small things, but they could do so much more. I think of them as having imaginary signs over their doors that say, “Discover wellness here. Leave stress behind.” Again, some museums have yoga in the galleries, slow-looking tours, and sensory-friendly mornings, but they could do so, so much more.
BE: And they have the best gift shops in the world! I get very excited when I see my books in a museum gift shop.
SMW: Where do you get inspiration for your books?
BE: It’s different every time as each reason is written for a different reason. But if I had to find a common denominator, it would be that I want to raise awareness for any particular subject, whether it be bookstores, great writers, the art of snowman making, or master cartoonists. So, I’m writing with that in mind, trying to shine a good light on whatever and get the reader to fall in love with it that I am talking about. In my museum book, certainly the museums themselves and their collections were great inspiration to me.
SMW: I do love, in Footnotes from the Most Fascinating Museums, the diversity of types of museums you include. That’s one of the amazing delights about museums across our country. Being that I was a therapist in my second career, I always have to ask at least one question about feelings! What’s one overriding feeling that you have when you think of all the amazing museums you saw and wrote about?
BE: There’s quite a bit of emotions. Awe and admiration. Excitement and motivation (to create myself). But in all honesty, one feeling that is unpredictable, is regret. Why did it take so long? So long to appreciate all these museums and everything out there? So long to explore these institutions i took for granted. So long before I worked on a book that I truly love. So long before I have come to appreciate the beauty and knowledge there is in the world. I have since been racing with morality to get done as much as I can now after seeing what so many in the world have accomplished, how they have left their mark here. Instead of standing back and enjoying the book it has propelled me to drive myself crazy. Any advice?
Please check out Susan Ward’s Substack, The Savvy Museum Visitor.
Please check out Bob Eckstein’s Substack, The Bob, HERE.
What a wonderful chat between two museum aficionados. I was so thrilled when Bob gave me a live, annotated tour of the Cloisters a week or two ago (time here in NYC is blurring). And Susan, my first museum experience, like yours was the Detroit Institute of Art. I grew up just north of the 8 mile Detroit border. I really miss MIchigan, except for the all the driving.
You two are fabulous.
Great question by Susan Marie Ward: "Being that I was a therapist in my second career, I always have to ask at least one question about feelings! What’s one overriding feeling that you have when you think of all the amazing museums you saw and wrote about?"